Ass-backwards syllogism by aemathisphd (02/21/12) ⇌ (@jayn0t)
"But you still have the remnants of a Jewish tribal viewpoint: "Anti-Semitism, unlike most other kinds of prejudice, has an enormous and quite recent body count", you claim. Not so. Anti-semitism is not at all unique in that respect. Anti-Germanism, Christophobia and other forms of hate also have enormous and quite recent body counts, and, unlike white nationalism, Jewish prejudices are continuing to kill people today. It's not the white nationalist right who are pushing America to attack Iran."
I reject the above ideas pretty much entirely.
Anti-Germanism is a concept with which I'm not unfamiliar. I would say the worst wave of this kind of thing occurred in the aftermath of WWII, when some 13 million Germans lost their homes and were deported to the new borders of Germany. About a million died.
That's a crime against humanity but not genocide.
Christophobia, as far as I can tell, only has a body count in Muslim countries where Christians have been persecuted. Correct me if I'm wrong. Otherwise, the history of anti-Semitism is pretty much the history of organized Christianity, so I'm not exactly sympathetic to the idea of Christians being a suffering type. Sorry.
I would argue that the manner in which Israel conducts itself is profoundly UN-Jewish, so "Jewish prejudices" killing people seems, to me, in accurate.
And no, it's not the white nationalist right pushing the U.S. toward war, but it was white nationalist right wingers who murdered Europe's Jews, so again, I'm not exactly sympathetic.
You continue, "I'm saying that holocaust denial does not lead logically to anti-semitism. You say that it does, because there is a statistical correlation between the two."
But I'm not saying that. I'm saying the opposite. Most Holocaust deniers are in the Holocaust denial business because they hate Jews.
You again: "You argue that almost all holocaust deniers are extreme white nationalists. In fact, most holocaust deniers in the world are Muslims. Of the remainder, some are liberal humanists, leftists, and all sorts of things. Francis Clark-Lowes and other writers have become unconvinced of the holocaust because they don't trust the people who promote it, not because they believe in collective ethnic responsibility"
The majority of deniers may be Muslims, but they're deniers because they oppose Israel — not because the deniers have a good argument or the "promoters" a bad one. If the issue of Israel didn't exist, I seriously doubt most people who deny the Holocaust would bother with the effort, particularly in the Muslim world.
Sure, some are liberal humanists and some are leftists, but they've been duped. And the people who duped them are hard-core neo-Nazi anti-Semites like Zündel and his wife.
You again: "Even Raul Hilberg's celebrated 'Destruction of the European Jews' has flaws: unsubstantiated accounts of children being thrown into fiery pits by the Nazis, for example. He, too, had a chip on his shoulder, and is subject to revision. "
Of course it's subject to revision. However, it's not subject to negation absent sufficient evidence to warrant that.
Deniers have not offered this.
By the way, regarding Hilberg, I see on p. 1044 of his three-volume work that he cites some survivors as having witnessed babies being thrown in fiery pits. That's different from his having alleged it himself. Although he does cite three separate people on that point. So there's that.
You finish, "You can find articles by Ingrid Zundel on the site "Veterans Today", which bravely gave Zundel a platform, where she explained her family's experiences at the hands of the Red Army. We hear enough about 'the' holocaust, but not about 'the other holocaust'. A balanced view of World War II is an important part of undermining the only major form of racial oppression left in the Western world - Zionism. I've been saying this for a long time."
I know all about Ingrid's background. We know each other personally; you can Google that. The difference between what happened to her family, terrible as it was, and what happened to Europe's Jews is that what happened to the Rimlands and people like them wasn't genocide. I reject the comparison as invalid.
In my opinion, the statement that understanding Stalinism is important to understanding WWII is to deeply understand WWII.
Furthermore, the statement that the only major form of racial oppression left in the Western world is Zionism is a bit myopic for my taste.